Man, you really need a job. Thanks for the link!!!
matt
· 1 year ago
hmmm....did you not have time to mention William Ayers?
I too believe that the turnout on Nov. 4th will be historic and I think this is a great thing. It's always good when people engage in the process of democracy (I'm looking at you Micah). It should be pointed out, however, that digs at ACORN aside, the only person arrested for voter fraud so far this year is a Republican operative from California. Not to mention that ACORN has never been accused of voter fraud - some ACORN employees have surely committed voter REGISTRATION fraud, but that's a different thing altogether.
I agree that Obama is not terribly experienced, but I disagree with the certainty that he will harm the country as being the biggest no brainer in the world. I think the decision whether or not to squib kick against Atlanta with a one point lead and 11 seconds on the clock is the biggest no brainer in the world, but that's just me.
Look, Barack Obama is just exactly what he says he is, a pragmatic, center-left politician with a history of bipartisan cooperation and a classically American biography. He isn't dangerous and he doesn't want to ruin your life. And just to reiterate for the thousandth or so time - he will lower the taxes of everyone who makes less than 250,000 dollars a year, and that includes small businesses. He will also eliminate capital gains taxes for businesses in that category and provide tax credits for healthcare.
Which segues nicely into my next point - do you, Shawn, like our healthcare system? I don't. it's broken. It doesn't work. Millions of people, including children, are denied basic access to health care in this country every day. As people of faith, and people who love this country that should outrage us. It must stop. And you are aware that people get sick for different reasons right? People do get sick because they smoke or are obese. They also get rare cancers that develop from viruses they catch while working as missionaries in India. Obama's health care plan isn't perfect, but it does make some effort to address the lack of quality care that millions in this country face.
I'm confused by what you wrote about hope and change. Do you really think that Obama wants to change the fundamental nature of America? I don't think so. Obama's appeal is based on the fact that he asks people to find the best in themselves and apply it. He speaks to the sense that when things are not going well that we have a responsibility to work hard and make it better. Have you ever actually heard him speak? He talks constantly about sacrifice and finding the commonalities that bind us together. I hope he will change some things about this country - I want troops out of Iraq, I want us to stop torture, I want a sane health care system like every other industrialized nation has, I want our reputation to improve, I want to break a dependence on middle eastern oil which destroys millions of lives. Is Obama going to achieve everything that I want? Of course not, but maybe he'll get there and stop the bleeding. As far as socialism goes, well to quote Inigo, "You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means". According to the dictionary socialism is "any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods" There is a candidate who has nationalized the means of production, her name is Sarah Palin.
svandyke
· 1 year ago
Matt, It will be a fun excerise in futility to respond to all the points you made this weekend, but I'll start with the one that strikes close to home first. Do I like the healthcare system...well, right now I have a little insurance policy that will cover SOME expenses if let's say I am hit by a bus...but that's ok. It's what I can afford...but I am relatively healthy. I don't need much. When I need more I will have to work hard and save and plan for the future. For all the fairness that O/B talk about...providing for yourself seems to be the most fair. I choose to do without some things in order to afford other things. Nothing complicated there. Why should I ask you to pay for something I can get myself. I am actually doing you a favor. And believe me I know people get sick for all sorts of reasons, but caring for my wife is my responsibility not yours. So please don't lecture me on the uninsured...when my wife losses her insurance...which is private....there's no health benefits at RCS.... we will start a new health care plan...it's called self-insurance and I won't be looking for you or anyone else to pay for it. This is far better plan than Obama's. And unless I missed it, has Obama ever run a hospital or anything related to the health care system before. Talk about lack of experience. Would you hire a lawyer to run a medical clinic and put him in charge of making health care decisions....maybe you would and I would say that's a poor business decision....which leads to my next point. You use the $250K kool-aid number to categorize small businesses. How much do you think it costs a business to hire one employee making,,,,for example...$30K. I'll let you look that one up and cut and paste the answer in your follow up comment. How much product do you have to purchase, store, inventory, and then re-sell to make a $250K. How much does liabiltiy insurance cost to be a consultant in the construction industry....see all these thigns add up...and before you know it, the smallest of business owners are way above $250K in order to squeak out a living. Now I know that you are going to say, the $250K is after deductions and expenses....but that's when I would ask you if you have ever actually listened to Obama. He has never gone into detail about what that $250K is. Does it include cost of goods bought, cost of goods sold, is it based on the accural accounting system, or cash basis analysis? What about the value of inventory or accounts receiveable...so forgive me if I don't quite think Obama is up to the task of providing as he says for the small businesses. Do you even know what the maximum annual income for a business to be considered "small" is? It's ok if you don't know the answers to all these questions, I didn't either when I started out on my own. But to say that people making under $250K are going to get a tax break is either a flat out lie or just plain ignorance. So when it comes to health care and small business, why would you want to empower a guy that couldn't even carry on an informed conservation with a plumber about how to run a business or understand that I can get better health care if I had my own money to spend on things I deem necessary for me and my family. Looking foward to your response
Micah Weedman
· 1 year ago
By definition (which seem to be pretty fluid here), futility can't be fun.
Micah Weedman
· 1 year ago
I can't vote, because I am not registered.
But at several points, I've been almost persuaded to vote for Obama, not because I think Obama is the answer to all ills, but because of what most Obama supporters talk about. It is nice to see people actually talking about mutual responsibility (which is so much better than the non-existent personal kind), about caring for the least of these, and striving for peace, and other things Jesus talks about. Plus, I think it means something to vote for a black man. And no, that's not racist, and no, I won't discuss it further. So, I've come close.
Seriously: if voting is nothing else but an act of self-interest, then it is actually immoral. I've never argued that voting is immoral before, and for good reason; I know of people in my own family who vote morally.
But we should speak truthfully: if voting is nothing but self-preservation and self-interest, than it's immoral. I'll give you an example: here's a phrase no Christian is allowed to say: "my money." And yet, here's a phrase lots of Christians say when they talk about voting (and voting for John McCain specifically): "my money." It pollutes the way we thing about discipleship, because it causes us to ascribe worth to the wrong things.
And nobody's gonna convince me to do that.
Micah Weedman
· 1 year ago
And I'm done. I'm fasting from talking this s***. The revolution starts at home.
matt
· 1 year ago
According the non paritsan Tax Policy Center - about 2% of businesses would see a tax rate increase. Obama does in fact say that the 250K number is a reference to net profit. I can't find any information on the specifics of whether or not that means it's a cash base analysis or what. Rather than believe that he has a secret plan to raise your taxes, I'm going to take him at his word. You say, "But to say that people making under $250K are going to get a tax break is either a flat out lie or just plain ignorance." You'll have to explain this, because I don't understand your assertion.
Ultimately, it comes down to who you believe. I beileve that Barack Obama is a good man and that he is honest. He has surrounded himself with smart capable advisers (I mean really, Austen Goolsbee is not exactly a wild-eyed Marxist) I don't believe that he has a secret plan to revise the tax code so that you have to pay more. It doesn't make sense.
For what it's worth, I watched Obama's encounter with Sam the Not Plumber. Putting aside Sam's general dishonesty (he is in no shape to buy any business, let alone the imaginary 280,000 dollar a year plumbing empire he told Obama about), I thought it was a pretty standard politician/citizen rope line encounter. Obama will raise the marginal tax rate on those who make more than 250K,. He was trying to put that in the best light possible.
As far as Health Care - I just am at a loss for words. You speak about being healthy as if that is some sort of choice. It isn't. Tragedy can befall at any moment, and the results can be devastating. And I do not understand your hostility to the idea that you will be helping some one else or someone else will be helping you. I think we were on the same Bible Bowl team when we studied Acts, yes? Acts 2:46 describes how the early church members lived together and had "all things in common" and "divided all their goods as each had need." I don't think that the Bible is calling us to be communists, but I think there is a clear call to recognize our responsibility to each other. The clearest way I can see to that end is this issue of Health Care. The US ranks 37th on the WHO rankings of health systems. We have higher infant mortality rates than any industrialized nation in the world. (incidentally, we also spend more per person on health care than any other nation in the world, so not only is our system insufficient and immoral, it's also expensive!) Wouldn't you rather have France's health system (#1 on the WHO rating) where you have guaranteed coverage for everyone, cradle to grave, , far greater levels of customer (patient) satisfaction, and it costs less? That seems like a no brainer to me.
svandyke
· 1 year ago
Well, I guess that's where it stops. You believe Obama to be honest when he has most certainly told several lies...but I am not going to convince you differently.
And yes, we were on the Bible Bowl team, and I thought that Acts was talking about the church not the government. I'll go back and read that again to make sure.
And Micah is right, I don't believe the money I earn or the house I have is "my money", but I believe I am called to be a steward of God's money...and having it taken by the government, is in no way being a good steward of His blessings.
And Matt, I know being healthy is not a choice...we are living that out everyday...I am not hostile toward helping someone out...I am hostile to government telling me who I have to help out.
And if you are so interested in helping folks out, as you say, then please start sending me money each month to pay for medicine my wife needs...don't wait for Obama to do it...start the Hope and Change now. Let me know if you need my address . I won't hold my breath.
matt
· 1 year ago
I'm sure Obama's hedged the truth like any politician. I certainly don't think he's a liar though. I do think he is just like anyone - a fallible, flawed man. I wish him the best and I hope that he is elected so that we can take at least on small step towards fixing this country.
So do you believe that the example of Acts speaks only to the church? I don't. If I believe anything about the Bible it is that it speaks to everyone - governments, individuals, churches. Reading Acts again today, I was reminded of what a truly radical document that book is. It seems like we focus on the small minutiae and miss the larger picture. Do you remember Jesus' response to the question of the most important commandment? The call to care for one another is real and evident. As Micah has pointed out, many times, choosing a politician is not the only choice that matters and it's never enough. We are called to higher action, that much is evident.
I guess fundamentally, I don't think it's just government telling you who to help. I think God does as well. We must recognize who our neighbors are and love them. That's everyone - including those whom we see as underserving. This is an area where I need a lot of work. I have divided the world into those that I like and those I don't for too long and I have been ruled by anger far too much the past, I don't know, 8 years? I need to stop.
I also don't think God's blessings can be counted in terms of money or material things. To me they are family and connections. I'm just not on board with the whole Osteen prosperity gospel I guess.
And I am interested in helping out. If there's anything I could ever do to help you and your family, financially or otherwise please let me know in all seriousness. I guess the point that I want to make in terms of government sponsored health care is this - I could send you every dime I have and it probably wouldn't do much to dent your health care costs (for one thing it wouldn't be that many dimes) For a much smaller investment from all of us though it wouldn't even be an issue.
I can tell that you are getting angry so I'll probably sign off.
Best
-m
svandyke
· 1 year ago
not angry here.
unless you are suggesting I that I am on board with "the whole Osteen prosperity gospel"...then yes I am angry at you and will kick you in your old knees the next time I see you.
Kory
· 1 year ago
Matt,
Statistics are an interesting thing because they can sound good when Mr. Obama says that 9/10 Small business won't be affect by his tax increases. The problem is that these small businesses don't make up 90% of the workforce, the reality is 50% of all businesses with 20-249 employees will see their tax burden will increase. So the small businesses that create the most jobs will feel the impact of the Obama tax plan and either be forced to make up that bottom line by passing on that cost to the consumer (inflation) or cut expenses (jobs). So in an already difficult economy we create inflationary pressures and/or reduce the workforce. It makes absolutely no sense and no economist is going to say this will stimulate growth and middle-class workers are going to be thrilled with that extra $800 refund when they lose their job.
While we are on the economy and jobs, go ahead and look up the Employee Free Choice Act which Obama has said he will see to it that it gets enacted as law. It simply does away with secret ballots when voting in unions, so every employee exposes themselves to intimidation tactics by union sympathizers. Hmmm "Free Choice". I would be interested to see what happens to the manufacturing jobs in this country if Obama paves the way for a union resurgence in America. But hey we'll have free health-care and be doing our part for our fellow man by sending money to Washington!
All Comments
I too believe that the turnout on Nov. 4th will be historic and I think this is a great thing. It's always good when people engage in the process of democracy (I'm looking at you Micah). It should be pointed out, however, that digs at ACORN aside, the only person arrested for voter fraud so far this year is a Republican operative from California. Not to mention that ACORN has never been accused of voter fraud - some ACORN employees have surely committed voter REGISTRATION fraud, but that's a different thing altogether.
I agree that Obama is not terribly experienced, but I disagree with the certainty that he will harm the country as being the biggest no brainer in the world. I think the decision whether or not to squib kick against Atlanta with a one point lead and 11 seconds on the clock is the biggest no brainer in the world, but that's just me.
Look, Barack Obama is just exactly what he says he is, a pragmatic, center-left politician with a history of bipartisan cooperation and a classically American biography. He isn't dangerous and he doesn't want to ruin your life. And just to reiterate for the thousandth or so time - he will lower the taxes of everyone who makes less than 250,000 dollars a year, and that includes small businesses. He will also eliminate capital gains taxes for businesses in that category and provide tax credits for healthcare.
Which segues nicely into my next point - do you, Shawn, like our healthcare system? I don't. it's broken. It doesn't work. Millions of people, including children, are denied basic access to health care in this country every day. As people of faith, and people who love this country that should outrage us. It must stop.
And you are aware that people get sick for different reasons right? People do get sick because they smoke or are obese. They also get rare cancers that develop from viruses they catch while working as missionaries in India. Obama's health care plan isn't perfect, but it does make some effort to address the lack of quality care that millions in this country face.
I'm confused by what you wrote about hope and change. Do you really think that Obama wants to change the fundamental nature of America? I don't think so. Obama's appeal is based on the fact that he asks people to find the best in themselves and apply it. He speaks to the sense that when things are not going well that we have a responsibility to work hard and make it better. Have you ever actually heard him speak? He talks constantly about sacrifice and finding the commonalities that bind us together. I hope he will change some things about this country - I want troops out of Iraq, I want us to stop torture, I want a sane health care system like every other industrialized nation has, I want our reputation to improve, I want to break a dependence on middle eastern oil which destroys millions of lives. Is Obama going to achieve everything that I want? Of course not, but maybe he'll get there and stop the bleeding.
As far as socialism goes, well to quote Inigo, "You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means". According to the dictionary socialism is "any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods" There is a candidate who has nationalized the means of production, her name is Sarah Palin.
It will be a fun excerise in futility to respond to all the points you made this weekend, but I'll start with the one that strikes close to home first.
Do I like the healthcare system...well, right now I have a little insurance policy that will cover SOME expenses if let's say I am hit by a bus...but that's ok. It's what I can afford...but I am relatively healthy. I don't need much. When I need more I will have to work hard and save and plan for the future. For all the fairness that O/B talk about...providing for yourself seems to be the most fair. I choose to do without some things in order to afford other things. Nothing complicated there. Why should I ask you to pay for something I can get myself. I am actually doing you a favor. And believe me I know people get sick for all sorts of reasons, but caring for my wife is my responsibility not yours. So please don't lecture me on the uninsured...when my wife losses her insurance...which is private....there's no health benefits at RCS.... we will start a new health care plan...it's called self-insurance and I won't be looking for you or anyone else to pay for it. This is far better plan than Obama's. And unless I missed it, has Obama ever run a hospital or anything related to the health care system before. Talk about lack of experience. Would you hire a lawyer to run a medical clinic and put him in charge of making health care decisions....maybe you would and I would say that's a poor business decision....which leads to my next point.
You use the $250K kool-aid number to categorize small businesses. How much do you think it costs a business to hire one employee making,,,,for example...$30K. I'll let you look that one up and cut and paste the answer in your follow up comment. How much product do you have to purchase, store, inventory, and then re-sell to make a $250K. How much does liabiltiy insurance cost to be a consultant in the construction industry....see all these thigns add up...and before you know it, the smallest of business owners are way above $250K in order to squeak out a living. Now I know that you are going to say, the $250K is after deductions and expenses....but that's when I would ask you if you have ever actually listened to Obama. He has never gone into detail about what that $250K is. Does it include cost of goods bought, cost of goods sold, is it based on the accural accounting system, or cash basis analysis? What about the value of inventory or accounts receiveable...so forgive me if I don't quite think Obama is up to the task of providing as he says for the small businesses. Do you even know what the maximum annual income for a business to be considered "small" is? It's ok if you don't know the answers to all these questions, I didn't either when I started out on my own. But to say that people making under $250K are going to get a tax break is either a flat out lie or just plain ignorance.
So when it comes to health care and small business, why would you want to empower a guy that couldn't even carry on an informed conservation with a plumber about how to run a business or understand that I can get better health care if I had my own money to spend on things I deem necessary for me and my family.
Looking foward to your response
But at several points, I've been almost persuaded to vote for Obama, not because I think Obama is the answer to all ills, but because of what most Obama supporters talk about. It is nice to see people actually talking about mutual responsibility (which is so much better than the non-existent personal kind), about caring for the least of these, and striving for peace, and other things Jesus talks about. Plus, I think it means something to vote for a black man. And no, that's not racist, and no, I won't discuss it further. So, I've come close.
Seriously: if voting is nothing else but an act of self-interest, then it is actually immoral. I've never argued that voting is immoral before, and for good reason; I know of people in my own family who vote morally.
But we should speak truthfully: if voting is nothing but self-preservation and self-interest, than it's immoral. I'll give you an example: here's a phrase no Christian is allowed to say: "my money." And yet, here's a phrase lots of Christians say when they talk about voting (and voting for John McCain specifically): "my money." It pollutes the way we thing about discipleship, because it causes us to ascribe worth to the wrong things.
And nobody's gonna convince me to do that.
Ultimately, it comes down to who you believe. I beileve that Barack Obama is a good man and that he is honest. He has surrounded himself with smart capable advisers (I mean really, Austen Goolsbee is not exactly a wild-eyed Marxist) I don't believe that he has a secret plan to revise the tax code so that you have to pay more. It doesn't make sense.
For what it's worth, I watched Obama's encounter with Sam the Not Plumber. Putting aside Sam's general dishonesty (he is in no shape to buy any business, let alone the imaginary 280,000 dollar a year plumbing empire he told Obama about), I thought it was a pretty standard politician/citizen rope line encounter. Obama will raise the marginal tax rate on those who make more than 250K,. He was trying to put that in the best light possible.
As far as Health Care - I just am at a loss for words. You speak about being healthy as if that is some sort of choice. It isn't. Tragedy can befall at any moment, and the results can be devastating. And I do not understand your hostility to the idea that you will be helping some one else or someone else will be helping you. I think we were on the same Bible Bowl team when we studied Acts, yes? Acts 2:46 describes how the early church members lived together and had "all things in common" and "divided all their goods as each had need." I don't think that the Bible is calling us to be communists, but I think there is a clear call to recognize our responsibility to each other. The clearest way I can see to that end is this issue of Health Care. The US ranks 37th on the WHO rankings of health systems. We have higher infant mortality rates than any industrialized nation in the world. (incidentally, we also spend more per person on health care than any other nation in the world, so not only is our system insufficient and immoral, it's also expensive!) Wouldn't you rather have France's health system (#1 on the WHO rating) where you have guaranteed coverage for everyone, cradle to grave, , far greater levels of customer (patient) satisfaction, and it costs less? That seems like a no brainer to me.
And yes, we were on the Bible Bowl team, and I thought that Acts was talking about the church not the government. I'll go back and read that again to make sure.
And Micah is right, I don't believe the money I earn or the house I have is "my money", but I believe I am called to be a steward of God's money...and having it taken by the government, is in no way being a good steward of His blessings.
And Matt, I know being healthy is not a choice...we are living that out everyday...I am not hostile toward helping someone out...I am hostile to government telling me who I have to help out.
And if you are so interested in helping folks out, as you say, then please start sending me money each month to pay for medicine my wife needs...don't wait for Obama to do it...start the Hope and Change now. Let me know if you need my address . I won't hold my breath.
So do you believe that the example of Acts speaks only to the church? I don't. If I believe anything about the Bible it is that it speaks to everyone - governments, individuals, churches. Reading Acts again today, I was reminded of what a truly radical document that book is. It seems like we focus on the small minutiae and miss the larger picture. Do you remember Jesus' response to the question of the most important commandment? The call to care for one another is real and evident. As Micah has pointed out, many times, choosing a politician is not the only choice that matters and it's never enough. We are called to higher action, that much is evident.
I guess fundamentally, I don't think it's just government telling you who to help. I think God does as well. We must recognize who our neighbors are and love them. That's everyone - including those whom we see as underserving. This is an area where I need a lot of work. I have divided the world into those that I like and those I don't for too long and I have been ruled by anger far too much the past, I don't know, 8 years? I need to stop.
I also don't think God's blessings can be counted in terms of money or material things. To me they are family and connections. I'm just not on board with the whole Osteen prosperity gospel I guess.
And I am interested in helping out. If there's anything I could ever do to help you and your family, financially or otherwise please let me know in all seriousness. I guess the point that I want to make in terms of government sponsored health care is this - I could send you every dime I have and it probably wouldn't do much to dent your health care costs (for one thing it wouldn't be that many dimes) For a much smaller investment from all of us though it wouldn't even be an issue.
I can tell that you are getting angry so I'll probably sign off.
Best
-m
unless you are suggesting I that I am on board with "the whole Osteen prosperity gospel"...then yes I am angry at you and will kick you in your old knees the next time I see you.
Statistics are an interesting thing because they can sound good when Mr. Obama says that 9/10 Small business won't be affect by his tax increases. The problem is that these small businesses don't make up 90% of the workforce, the reality is 50% of all businesses with 20-249 employees will see their tax burden will increase. So the small businesses that create the most jobs will feel the impact of the Obama tax plan and either be forced to make up that bottom line by passing on that cost to the consumer (inflation) or cut expenses (jobs). So in an already difficult economy we create inflationary pressures and/or reduce the workforce. It makes absolutely no sense and no economist is going to say this will stimulate growth and middle-class workers are going to be thrilled with that extra $800 refund when they lose their job.
While we are on the economy and jobs, go ahead and look up the Employee Free Choice Act which Obama has said he will see to it that it gets enacted as law. It simply does away with secret ballots when voting in unions, so every employee exposes themselves to intimidation tactics by union sympathizers. Hmmm "Free Choice". I would be interested to see what happens to the manufacturing jobs in this country if Obama paves the way for a union resurgence in America. But hey we'll have free health-care and be doing our part for our fellow man by sending money to Washington!
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122455021772252...
http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NzAxZm...