why is community organizer a resume padding? He worked for a church based grassroots organization trying to establish job training programs for laid off steelworkers. I don't know why that is somehow a problem or something to mock
Kate
· 1 year ago
I agree, I don't think his community work is anything to mock. I think it is valuable for what it is- I don't think that work qualifies you to be the President of The United States.
Matt
· 1 year ago
I agree - I'm not really sure what work does actually qualify you to be president
Kate
· 1 year ago
Governor :0)
Matt
· 1 year ago
well as someone else said - Jesus was a community organizer and Pontius Pilate was a governor
Actually I fail to see how being governor of a state like Alaska, or Texas or even Arkansas is really a preparation for being president of the US. None of them are close to the scale and scope of the presidency and none have anything close to the diplomatic or foreign policy requirements. The best indicator seems to be a judgment of an individual's character and most importantly an analysis of their policy proposals
svandyke
· 1 year ago
@Matt if being a governor (making executive decisions) of a state isn't preparation for the vice presidency, then how is being a senator (making decisions by committee) preparation for the presidency?
At least be intelligently honest and say, OK Obama doesn't have that much experience, but I'd still like to him to be president...that's fair, but to say that someone else doesn't have "experience" just because you don't happen to go along with their views is a bit weak. Sure you think Obama would make a better president because of his policy proposals and his judgement...leave it at that, but don't try to knock someone else's experience just because your guy has none.
And policy proposal are just that proposals....they don't actually mean anything. Look at someone's record....what have they actually done.
And remember, Palin is the running for VP and Obama is running for president. I personally believe that Palin should be at the top of the ticket, but I'll take VP. I would say you are doing a diservice to Obama when you compare him to the other party's bottom of the ticket.
Matt
· 1 year ago
Where did I compare Sarah Palin and Barack Obama? Not once in my entire post. As I said two comments above, I don't actually think that any job is really a qualification or preparation for the presidency -governor, senator or mayor of Wasilla. If you look at my last post you will see that I said that the most important qualifications are a character evaluation and an understanding of policy proposals. I never once said that Palin doesn't have experience.
In fact I don't care about her experience at all except in terms of what it says about John McCain. Sarah Palin is only unqualified to be the president by the standards expressed by her running mate. McCain has made the only case for his candidacy by telling us that Obama isn't qualified to be president, only he, John McCain, POW is worthy, and then he picked a person whose "qualifications" are even slimmer than Barack's. This is proof that he doesn't believe anything that he says.
svandyke
· 1 year ago
he picked a person whose “qualifications” are even slimmer than Barack’s now that was funnier than the original post. but we do agree Obama has no experience.
Matt
· 1 year ago
And policy proposal are just that proposals….they don’t actually mean anything. Look at someone’s record….what have they actually done.
This statement contains everything that is wrong with politics today. The only thing that matters are what do we think a politician will do. Biography is much less important. History is less important. The specific plan that a politician has to affect the way this country is run is much more telling and important.
We've heard a lot about Sarah Palin's child who was born with Down Syndrome and she said in her speech that special needs kids would always have a friend in her, and that's great - the developmentally disabled community is probably the most silent and under served population in this country. So what does it tell us that Barack Obama has had a page on his issues site devoted to Disabilities (and as someone who has spent a lot of time working with special needs individuals I can tell you it's all very good policy) since the day he created his website? Which one matters more? McCain doesn't mention Disabilities at all on his issues page and has never made it an issue. What does that tell you?
We live in the real world and these people are trying to become some of the most important people in our lives. Their personal stories influence me much less than their vision for what out world should become.
svandyke
· 1 year ago
Well it certainly doesn't tell me that McCain dislike peoples with disabilities. All I am saying is that you have to and probably can square your views about disabled folks with your candidate who has a WEBPAGE about disabilities and votes to allow killing of the unborn and then try to imply something about McCain because he doesn't have a WEBPAGE about it.
I agree with you...the personal stories influence me much more too. What about Obama's story is so profound...and I don't blame him that he doesn't have a disabled child, or been tortured in a prison camp, or that he may have helped folks in his community...but what about him personally makes him so attractive as a presidential candidate....other than you agree with his views....I get that.
Matt
· 1 year ago
I've been trying to think of a response to your post, but I'm not really sure what it is you're saying so I'm a little stymied.
I'm interested in the issues pages that the candidates have because, unlike a short stump speech which is designed to be memorable and general, they are very specific and detailed (in McCain's case they are relatively detailed). Or to put it another way, I don't know or care if John McCain dislikes disabled people. I do want to know what his policies are as they relate to the disabled. His personal feelings are meaningless. So is his history. Some aspects of McCain's personal story are incredibly powerful. His experience and behavior as a POW are humbling. But you know what I care more about? The fact that he voted against the 21st century GI Bill.
Or to put it another way - I don't think Sarah Palin is unqualified to be president because she has limited experience. I think she is unqualified because she doesn't understand basic facts about our current economic crisis (see her comments about Freddie Mac).
Kate
· 1 year ago
Matt and I were having a pleasant conversation until my husband jumped in. I'll try to work on that
Brent
· 1 year ago
Matt,
You fell victim to one of the classic blunders. The most famous is never get into a land war in Asia. But only slightly less well known is this - Never try to debate policies, religion or any other philosophical issue with SVD.
I gave up about a month ago because I value our friendship too much.
Jo Ellen
· 1 year ago
I don't intend to join this discussion for long, but what I can't get over is that conservatives want to mock someone who gave up a position at any law firm he wanted after graduating and went to do grassroots, community-based work. I thought this is what conservatives WANT. They don't want more bureaucrats right? They don't want more government or specifically for "government to solve peoples' problems," right? They want LOCAL communities (like poor black people on the southside of Chicago) to organize themselves and work on solving their own community's violence, poverty, education, crime, childcare, etc. issues--am I right? Micah's fb question is valid: We moved into a low income, black, high crime neighborhood. Should we join our neighbors to work at a grassroots level to solve some of these very serious issues or should we call the mayor and demand he find us some federal earmarks?
sadcox
· 1 year ago
Crap, I'm the one who said it. Why can't I get all this traffic?
svandyke
· 1 year ago
Because I am the one with the liberal in-laws :0) (lots of love to you in-laws out there)
Matt
· 1 year ago
So, Sadcox, since you wrote the quote which started this discussion, do you want to answer my original comment? how is community organizing "padding" his resume? Why is that aspect of his bio something to be mocked or disdained?
Katie
· 1 year ago
Here's another Katie to jump into the conversation. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I have yet to meet or hear about an Obama supporter who actually knows what Obama's views are (or what their own are, for that matter). I realize this problem exists in all parties, but it seems to be more prevalent in this election with Obama. People follow him blindly without even knowing what they are following. And they first of all, assume that we are in some sort of Depression ( which we're not...how many people own a cell phone and go out to eat on a regular basis in this country? A lot....we're not in a depression), and they, second of all, assume it's all Bush's fault. Therefore, they want "change." For example, everyone thinks Bush's "No Child Left Behind" education policy has failed and they shout and blame him for it. Well, does anyone know who came up with the whole idea in the first place? You guessed it....Ted Kennedy, a Democrat. Do you hear anyone blaming him? NO! When Katrina hit and everyone saw how horribly the whole thing was handled, who did they blame? Bush! He's the devil who caused the big delay with the FEMA response. But, when Gustav just hit and everything was handled in an orderly fashion, did you hear anyone praising Bush for getting the job done right? NO! Sure, maybe Bush wasn't responsible for the organization, but you have to be consistent and see that he wasn't solely responsible for the response after Katrina, either.
I do have a point here...the point is, don't spend your time blaming the other side for all the problems in the world. This goes for Democrats and Republicans. Know your candidates and know WHY you are voting for them. Don't vote for a candidate solely because he or she is different than George Bush. That is foolish.
Sorry for the long comment....this stuff just makes me a little mad.
sadcox
· 1 year ago
@Matt basically because it says he doesn't have much more than that to put on his resume. It screams "inexperienced".
I'm not saying that organizing communities isn't a great thing to do. I'm saying that when you list that among your qualifications to President, you'd better be ready for someone to come along and call you inexperienced.
Example--If I had to resort to listing my experience waiting tables to fill up white space on my resume for a professional position in the restaurant industry, I'd better be applying for something entry level, not the CEO of the organization.
Matt
· 1 year ago
Sadcox - he spent 7 years as a state senator in IL and he is currently a US Senator. He taught Con Law at the University of Chicago and he graduated Magna Cum Laude from Harvard Law School and was the first African American editor of the Law Review. He has one or two more things on his resume than organizing. And as Jo said, that experience speaks more to his character that he would choose that job rather than a higher paying corporate job. It was also a moving experience for him personally, I think, which is why he brings it up. He probably wouldn't be in politics today without that experience. If Sarah Palin hadn't been involved the the community organization called the PTA she probably wouldn't be either.
Katie, I'm curious, did you do a poll of Obama supporters to come to your conclusions. What was your methodology? How did you compare the knowledge base of Obama supporters vs McCain supporters? Do you remember that two weeks ago John McCain's entire campaign was based on the fact that Barack Obama is too inexperienced to be president and now it is based on the idea that McCain/Palin is the ticket for change? We have never been at war with Eurasia, we have always been at war with Eastasia
As you your other points about our economy -I don't know anyone who has said we are in a depression. Several people have said that we are in the beginnings of a possible recession and that's a different thing. As far as your point about cell phones and eating out - well I'm flummoxed by that comment. Lots of people do eat out and buy cell phones, but 37.5 million people in this country live below the poverty line and 18% of all children are below that level as well. And let's be frank. The poverty line is a JOKE. A family of 5 in this country that makes more than 25000 dollars a year is not in poverty by the US census bureau standards. That is simply insane. Rachel and I have one child, and we live in a modest apartment in LA and we pay over 16,000 dollars in year in RENT. How can that line possibly be accurate?. There is great economic disparity (and despair) in this country and it must be addressed.
To your other point about the yelling - well ask yourself which convention contained more nastiness and ugliness? R or D? Which campaign has been based almost solely on lies told about their opponents? That's a clear answer. There was a media firestorm about Sarah Palin's daughter's pregnancy until someone asked Barack Obama about it and he responded that he was born to an eighteen year old mother and he understood that things simply turn out that way sometimes. He then said that families should be off limits and that reporters should back off and stop writing about Palin's family. (he has said similar things about her religion in recent days). How did Palin respond? By giving one of the most mean spirited and ungracious speeches I have ever heard - including mocking Obama, by name in personal terms. The noise is coming from one side.
As for having never met a Barack Obama supporter who doesn't know what his views are - hi my name's Matt
tvd
· 1 year ago
"And as Jo said, that experience speaks more to his character that he would choose that job rather than a higher paying corporate job."
This is the only candidate I have ever known, in my short voting life, that has used jobs he didn't do as part of his experience. We project upon the candidate that it was about his character that he took a community organizing job, but there could be several reasons he did it.
And if we use that argument for his character then, why not now? Would it not speak more to his character now to go back to being a community organizer than President of the United States.
If he did it once maybe will get lucky and he will do it again.
Matt
· 1 year ago
what reasons could there have been for taking the community organizing job since we're talking about projection?
tvd
· 1 year ago
@Matt,
Frankly, I don't know. I don't assume it was because He is such a good person. Maybe he couldn't handle corporate law, maybe he knew that working with his friend Mr. Ayers, in the long run had a better chance of getting him elected to a place in the State of Federal Senate? I don't presume to know the answer to it. I just don understand why corporate law firms are seen as evil or at least less of a service than community organization. Not to mention, we don't know really what he did while working in South Chicago, Where are the records?
Again,My point is that what Obama hasn't done,i.e join a big corporate law firm, doesn't seem to me like presidential qualifications.
Osama Bin Laden Is a rich man too, yet he does a lot of "community organizing", does that speak to his character?
Now that's tongue in cheek of course. I am not comparing Obama and Osama, but being a "community organizer" doesn't directly relate to the character of a man.
Matt
· 1 year ago
when you introduced Osama - you lost all credibility and my interest in engaging with you
tvd
· 1 year ago
Hyperbole, my friend.... you know like saying Jesus was a community organizer and Pilate was a governor
The point was community organizing does not necessarily speak to a man's character.
Katie
· 1 year ago
Hi, Matt! Wow, I don’t know quite where to start in response to what you have said. There's so much to say. I think this debate goes much deeper than Obama and McCain. And it goes even deeper than Republicans and Democrats and their experience. I'll be honest, I have no polls (which are crap, anyway) or research to prove my point about Obama supporters vs. McCain supporters. I'm fully aware that both sides have supporters that are ignorant as to why they are voting. My "theory" about Obama supporters is based on the many, many interviews I've heard on television and the discussions I've had with family members and friends who support Obama. I get a general "vibe" that they don't really know what he stands for...they just like him because he's different than Bush. Again, this is just my opinion, but I think that reason is foolish. If there are those (you, maybe) who actually do know what they believe about government and who know what Obama stands for, then enlighten me...Without considering specific people (Obama, McCain, etc…), share a short summary of what you think the main functions of government should be in a perfect world? More specifically, what roles should the government/the President play, according to the Constitution? Then, tell me about your support for Obama…based on what you know about him (not what he’s SAID he will do, but what he’s actually DONE), what would his answers to the above questions be? I'm also posting these questions on my blog (www.crazylifeofkate.com) if you want to join that conversation.
Swing Trading
· 1 month ago
Good read. I have made a twitter post about this. Hope others find it as interesting as I did.
All Comments
Actually I fail to see how being governor of a state like Alaska, or Texas or even Arkansas is really a preparation for being president of the US. None of them are close to the scale and scope of the presidency and none have anything close to the diplomatic or foreign policy requirements. The best indicator seems to be a judgment of an individual's character and most importantly an analysis of their policy proposals
At least be intelligently honest and say, OK Obama doesn't have that much experience, but I'd still like to him to be president...that's fair, but to say that someone else doesn't have "experience" just because you don't happen to go along with their views is a bit weak.
Sure you think Obama would make a better president because of his policy proposals and his judgement...leave it at that, but don't try to knock someone else's experience just because your guy has none.
And policy proposal are just that proposals....they don't actually mean anything. Look at someone's record....what have they actually done.
And remember, Palin is the running for VP and Obama is running for president. I personally believe that Palin should be at the top of the ticket, but I'll take VP. I would say you are doing a diservice to Obama when you compare him to the other party's bottom of the ticket.
In fact I don't care about her experience at all except in terms of what it says about John McCain. Sarah Palin is only unqualified to be the president by the standards expressed by her running mate. McCain has made the only case for his candidacy by telling us that Obama isn't qualified to be president, only he, John McCain, POW is worthy, and then he picked a person whose "qualifications" are even slimmer than Barack's. This is proof that he doesn't believe anything that he says.
now that was funnier than the original post.
but we do agree Obama has no experience.
This statement contains everything that is wrong with politics today. The only thing that matters are what do we think a politician will do. Biography is much less important. History is less important. The specific plan that a politician has to affect the way this country is run is much more telling and important.
We've heard a lot about Sarah Palin's child who was born with Down Syndrome and she said in her speech that special needs kids would always have a friend in her, and that's great - the developmentally disabled community is probably the most silent and under served population in this country. So what does it tell us that Barack Obama has had a page on his issues site devoted to Disabilities (and as someone who has spent a lot of time working with special needs individuals I can tell you it's all very good policy) since the day he created his website? Which one matters more? McCain doesn't mention Disabilities at all on his issues page and has never made it an issue. What does that tell you?
We live in the real world and these people are trying to become some of the most important people in our lives. Their personal stories influence me much less than their vision for what out world should become.
All I am saying is that you have to and probably can square your views about disabled folks with your candidate who has a WEBPAGE about disabilities and votes to allow killing of the unborn and then try to imply something about McCain because he doesn't have a WEBPAGE about it.
I agree with you...the personal stories influence me much more too. What about Obama's story is so profound...and I don't blame him that he doesn't have a disabled child, or been tortured in a prison camp, or that he may have helped folks in his community...but what about him personally makes him so attractive as a presidential candidate....other than you agree with his views....I get that.
I'm interested in the issues pages that the candidates have because, unlike a short stump speech which is designed to be memorable and general, they are very specific and detailed (in McCain's case they are relatively detailed). Or to put it another way, I don't know or care if John McCain dislikes disabled people. I do want to know what his policies are as they relate to the disabled. His personal feelings are meaningless. So is his history. Some aspects of McCain's personal story are incredibly powerful. His experience and behavior as a POW are humbling. But you know what I care more about? The fact that he voted against the 21st century GI Bill.
Or to put it another way - I don't think Sarah Palin is unqualified to be president because she has limited experience. I think she is unqualified because she doesn't understand basic facts about our current economic crisis (see her comments about Freddie Mac).
You fell victim to one of the classic blunders. The most famous is never get into a land war in Asia. But only slightly less well known is this - Never try to debate policies, religion or any other philosophical issue with SVD.
I gave up about a month ago because I value our friendship too much.
Micah's fb question is valid: We moved into a low income, black, high crime neighborhood. Should we join our neighbors to work at a grassroots level to solve some of these very serious issues or should we call the mayor and demand he find us some federal earmarks?
(lots of love to you in-laws out there)
I do have a point here...the point is, don't spend your time blaming the other side for all the problems in the world. This goes for Democrats and Republicans. Know your candidates and know WHY you are voting for them. Don't vote for a candidate solely because he or she is different than George Bush. That is foolish.
Sorry for the long comment....this stuff just makes me a little mad.
I'm not saying that organizing communities isn't a great thing to do. I'm saying that when you list that among your qualifications to President, you'd better be ready for someone to come along and call you inexperienced.
Example--If I had to resort to listing my experience waiting tables to fill up white space on my resume for a professional position in the restaurant industry, I'd better be applying for something entry level, not the CEO of the organization.
Katie, I'm curious, did you do a poll of Obama supporters to come to your conclusions. What was your methodology? How did you compare the knowledge base of Obama supporters vs McCain supporters? Do you remember that two weeks ago John McCain's entire campaign was based on the fact that Barack Obama is too inexperienced to be president and now it is based on the idea that McCain/Palin is the ticket for change? We have never been at war with Eurasia, we have always been at war with Eastasia
As you your other points about our economy -I don't know anyone who has said we are in a depression. Several people have said that we are in the beginnings of a possible recession and that's a different thing. As far as your point about cell phones and eating out - well I'm flummoxed by that comment. Lots of people do eat out and buy cell phones, but 37.5 million people in this country live below the poverty line and 18% of all children are below that level as well. And let's be frank. The poverty line is a JOKE. A family of 5 in this country that makes more than 25000 dollars a year is not in poverty by the US census bureau standards. That is simply insane. Rachel and I have one child, and we live in a modest apartment in LA and we pay over 16,000 dollars in year in RENT. How can that line possibly be accurate?. There is great economic disparity (and despair) in this country and it must be addressed.
To your other point about the yelling - well ask yourself which convention contained more nastiness and ugliness? R or D? Which campaign has been based almost solely on lies told about their opponents? That's a clear answer. There was a media firestorm about Sarah Palin's daughter's pregnancy until someone asked Barack Obama about it and he responded that he was born to an eighteen year old mother and he understood that things simply turn out that way sometimes. He then said that families should be off limits and that reporters should back off and stop writing about Palin's family. (he has said similar things about her religion in recent days). How did Palin respond? By giving one of the most mean spirited and ungracious speeches I have ever heard - including mocking Obama, by name in personal terms. The noise is coming from one side.
As for having never met a Barack Obama supporter who doesn't know what his views are - hi my name's Matt
This is the only candidate I have ever known, in my short voting life, that has used jobs he didn't do as part of his experience. We project upon the candidate that it was about his character that he took a community organizing job, but there could be several reasons he did it.
And if we use that argument for his character then, why not now? Would it not speak more to his character now to go back to being a community organizer than President of the United States.
If he did it once maybe will get lucky and he will do it again.
Frankly, I don't know. I don't assume it was because He is such a good person. Maybe he couldn't handle corporate law, maybe he knew that working with his friend Mr. Ayers, in the long run had a better chance of getting him elected to a place in the State of Federal Senate? I don't presume to know the answer to it. I just don understand why corporate law firms are seen as evil or at least less of a service than community organization. Not to mention, we don't know really what he did while working in South Chicago, Where are the records?
Again,My point is that what Obama hasn't done,i.e join a big corporate law firm, doesn't seem to me like presidential qualifications.
Osama Bin Laden Is a rich man too, yet he does a lot of "community organizing", does that speak to his character?
Now that's tongue in cheek of course. I am not comparing Obama and Osama, but being a "community organizer" doesn't directly relate to the character of a man.
The point was community organizing does not necessarily speak to a man's character.